We need to stop competing.

We need to stop competing to make servers.
We need one, universal server, with good hardware, staff, and enough mods to be fun for everyone (not CC-only) and few enough to not be laggy (not hundreds of mods)
So, I have made a compromise between all the servers that i've seen.
It would be a survival server, with FTBUtils and either the PBv2 "BetaBot" or a bunch of sponge plugins.
Here is my recommended list of mods:
ComputerCraft (obviously)
Advanced Rocketry
Mekanism
Thermal Expansion
Thermal Dynamics
Forge Multipart
RFTools
Immersive Engineering
some Project Red knockoff/clone
OpenComputers
Chisel & Bits
Applied Energistics 2
If this is created, then all the other servers (maybe not the old, continually running "zombie servers" that nobody joins.) would be shut down, and the CC community would be (at least temporarily) revived, to Mid LuaLand era levels (20+ players)

That won't work for a lot of reasons:

• People will want different mods
• People will want different game settings (e.g. creative/survival, pvp/pve, etc)
• Larger servers aren't automatically better
• It takes a lot more work to run and maintain a larger server
• A lot of players (myself included) prefer smaller servers (you get a more tight-knit community and better experience IMO)
• Modded servers take far more resources to run than vanilla and have problems with lag with more players
• CC specifically doesn't scale well at all, running all computers on a single thread means they become almost unusable very quickly

apemanzilla, on 07 February 2018 - 04:13 PM said:

People will want different mods

I think one of my biggest issues with many "ComputerCraft" servers, is they are pretty much indistinguishable any other modded server, just with ComputerCraft. Consequently you don't really end up with people using CC that much. Some of the most fun I've had on servers was on SwitchCraft and Airwaves, as the limited mod selection forced you to be creative with what you had. Obviously this is a personal choice, and some people prefer a more kitchen sink pack.

apemanzilla, on 07 February 2018 - 04:13 PM said:

CC specifically doesn't scale well at all, running all computers on a single thread means they become almost unusable very quickly

CC: Tweaked (and CCTweaks for pre-1.12 versions) has support for multi-threading computers. I can't guarantee it's stable, but I know of a couple of servers which have enabled it with much success.

apemanzilla, on 07 February 2018 - 04:13 PM said:

That won't work for a lot of reasons:

• People will want different mods
• People will want different game settings (e.g. creative/survival, pvp/pve, etc)
• Larger servers aren't automatically better
• It takes a lot more work to run and maintain a larger server
• A lot of players (myself included) prefer smaller servers (you get a more tight-knit community and better experience IMO)
• Modded servers take far more resources to run than vanilla and have problems with lag with more players
• CC specifically doesn't scale well at all, running all computers on a single thread means they become almost unusable very quickly

Do you count 20-25 players as large? I would count that as quite small.

Terra1, on 07 February 2018 - 04:26 PM said:

apemanzilla, on 07 February 2018 - 04:13 PM said:

That won't work for a lot of reasons:

• People will want different mods
• People will want different game settings (e.g. creative/survival, pvp/pve, etc)
• Larger servers aren't automatically better
• It takes a lot more work to run and maintain a larger server
• A lot of players (myself included) prefer smaller servers (you get a more tight-knit community and better experience IMO)
• Modded servers take far more resources to run than vanilla and have problems with lag with more players
• CC specifically doesn't scale well at all, running all computers on a single thread means they become almost unusable very quickly

Do you count 20-25 players as large? I would count that as quite small.

Then my points about issues with large servers are even more relevant.

apemanzilla, on 07 February 2018 - 04:34 PM said:

Terra1, on 07 February 2018 - 04:26 PM said:

Do you count 20-25 players as large? I would count that as quite small.

Then my points about issues with large servers are even more relevant.

Having spent some time trying to fix lag issues on ProjectBeta, even a small number of players can quickly grind the server to a halt. There's always the balance between allowing people to build what they want, and having a relatively sane TPS.

Terra1, on 07 February 2018 - 04:26 PM said:

Do you count 20-25 players as large? I would count that as quite small.

For this community that is a very good sized server.

Take Switchcraft: One of the more popular servers of the time, had no less than 5 people playing on it at any time from launch day until pretty much now (a few days) and that is significant in this community.

I've just never seen the appeal of a CC server: even with only a few people playing, the response time of CC drops dramatically until it's almost painful to use. Not to mention that people get bored of the "new and improved" CC server that comes around every month after just a few days of playing, so if you were really into the whole multiplayer concept, you won't be too happy when the player counts drop.

Terra1, on 07 February 2018 - 03:40 PM said:

We need one, universal server

Terra1, on 07 February 2018 - 03:40 PM said:

the CC community would be (at least temporarily) revived, to Mid LuaLand era levels

There already is one universal server. Just look at the CC server tracker, it's just one server with occasional others getting a player or two.

3d6, on 07 February 2018 - 07:48 PM said:

Terra1, on 07 February 2018 - 03:40 PM said:

We need one, universal server

Terra1, on 07 February 2018 - 03:40 PM said:

the CC community would be (at least temporarily) revived, to Mid LuaLand era levels

There already is one universal server. Just look at the CC server tracker, it's just one server with occasional others getting a player or two.

*rolls d20*
nat 20
critical hit
0hp

Terra1, on 07 February 2018 - 04:26 PM said:

apemanzilla, on 07 February 2018 - 04:13 PM said:

That won't work for a lot of reasons:

• People will want different mods
• People will want different game settings (e.g. creative/survival, pvp/pve, etc)
• Larger servers aren't automatically better
• It takes a lot more work to run and maintain a larger server
• A lot of players (myself included) prefer smaller servers (you get a more tight-knit community and better experience IMO)
• Modded servers take far more resources to run than vanilla and have problems with lag with more players
• CC specifically doesn't scale well at all, running all computers on a single thread means they become almost unusable very quickly

Do you count 20-2No. 5 players as large? I would count that as quite small.

I never saw a CC server with 20 players online at the same time. But I am quite new so…

Jummit, on 07 February 2018 - 07:49 PM said:

Terra1, on 07 February 2018 - 04:26 PM said:

apemanzilla, on 07 February 2018 - 04:13 PM said:

That won't work for a lot of reasons:

• People will want different mods
• People will want different game settings (e.g. creative/survival, pvp/pve, etc)
• Larger servers aren't automatically better
• It takes a lot more work to run and maintain a larger server
• A lot of players (myself included) prefer smaller servers (you get a more tight-knit community and better experience IMO)
• Modded servers take far more resources to run than vanilla and have problems with lag with more players
• CC specifically doesn't scale well at all, running all computers on a single thread means they become almost unusable very quickly

Do you count 20-2No. 5 players as large? I would count that as quite small.

I never saw a CC server with 20 players online at the same time. But I am quite new so…

2014-late 2015 CC servers regularly had 20+ players.

Note: I'm gollark ingame and play regularly on Project Beta 2, though I've never played on Switchcraft.

Merging Switchcraft and Project Beta 2 (according to the tracker thing - http://track.computercraft.net/ - these are the most popular servers) could not work. The modlist of PB2 is about 70 mods long, and nearly all of them are used by various people. Bases are gigantic things with multiple levels packed with machinery. This does result in severe TPS issues, even with only 3 groups in what I'd consider "endgame". This is because it's basically a kitchen sink pack advertised as a bit CC-focused. Your proposed modlist would get rid of much of the interesting stuff - Botania, Psi, Deep Resonance, and Tinkers' Construct, plus presumably more.

Switchcraft, though, is very busy, but as it relies on turtles and computers for automation, tech levels are much lower. But your modlist for *that* would be a massive change, adding things to simplify mining, automation and other tasks. This would probably result in less of an economy due to resources increasing to post-scarcity levels, more lag, and - by the standards of CC automaters - less interesting stuff.

Basically, the middle ground between SC and PB2 would be pretty boring for most people, I think.

Jummit, on 07 February 2018 - 07:49 PM said:

Terra1, on 07 February 2018 - 04:26 PM said:

apemanzilla, on 07 February 2018 - 04:13 PM said:

That won't work for a lot of reasons:

• People will want different mods
• People will want different game settings (e.g. creative/survival, pvp/pve, etc)
• Larger servers aren't automatically better
• It takes a lot more work to run and maintain a larger server
• A lot of players (myself included) prefer smaller servers (you get a more tight-knit community and better experience IMO)
• Modded servers take far more resources to run than vanilla and have problems with lag with more players
• CC specifically doesn't scale well at all, running all computers on a single thread means they become almost unusable very quickly

Do you count 20-2No. 5 players as large? I would count that as quite small.

I never saw a CC server with 20 players online at the same time. But I am quite new so…

Switchcraft has 20 players atm


Edit: 21 ;)/>

Just a reminder: Switchcraft is still only four days old. Let me know what the player count is in a few weeks.

Switchcraft has some decently well known players, including popular server owners, such as:

valithor2 from LuaLand/CommunityCraft
Cdel from LuaLand/Kremeland
Lur from Lurcraft
BTC from the original Switchcraft (Under new ownership)
Lemmmy from NuclearStorm

Switchcraft also has some popular developers on their server:

CrazedProgrammer Surface, Strafe, CC Build Server, etc
3d6 original creator of Krist
SquidDev Creator of CCTweaks/CC:Tweaked/Plethora

Needless to say, Switchcraft has a decent and well known playerbase that I don't think they'll be losing.

CLNinja, on 07 February 2018 - 08:58 PM said:

Switchcraft has some decently well known players, including popular server owners, such as:
-snip-
Needless to say, Switchcraft has a decent and well known playerbase that I don't think they'll be losing.

Er, that doesn't really mean anything, especially the server owner list, since all of those servers are dead. Just because these are reputable members, doesn't mean they're immune to getting tired of a particular server. Again, tell me the player count in a few weeks.

Situation: There are 14 competing servers.
14?! Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal server that covers everyone's use cases.
Situation: There are 15 competing servers.

Gorzoid, on 09 February 2018 - 12:10 AM said:

Situation: There are 14 competing servers.
14?! Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal server that covers everyone's use cases.
Situation: There are 15 competing servers.

Hmm, I have the feeling this is stolen from somewhere, but I don't quite remember where.

osmarks, on 07 February 2018 - 08:26 PM said:

Note: I'm gollark ingame and play regularly on Project Beta 2, though I've never played on Switchcraft.

Merging Switchcraft and Project Beta 2 (according to the tracker thing - http://track.computercraft.net/ - these are the most popular servers) could not work. The modlist of PB2 is about 70 mods long, and nearly all of them are used by various people. Bases are gigantic things with multiple levels packed with machinery. This does result in severe TPS issues, even with only 3 groups in what I'd consider "endgame". This is because it's basically a kitchen sink pack advertised as a bit CC-focused. Your proposed modlist would get rid of much of the interesting stuff - Botania, Psi, Deep Resonance, and Tinkers' Construct, plus presumably more.

Switchcraft, though, is very busy, but as it relies on turtles and computers for automation, tech levels are much lower. But your modlist for *that* would be a massive change, adding things to simplify mining, automation and other tasks. This would probably result in less of an economy due to resources increasing to post-scarcity levels, more lag, and - by the standards of CC automaters - less interesting stuff.

Basically, the middle ground between SC and PB2 would be pretty boring for most people, I think.

Botania is incredibly boring. I've never seen Psi used for anything but messing with people, and i've never even seen Tinker's Construct used for anything whatsoever.

Terra1, on 10 February 2018 - 10:10 AM said:

Botania is incredibly boring. I've never seen Psi used for anything but messing with people, and i've never even seen Tinker's Construct used for anything whatsoever.

And this is the key reason "one universal server" will never work. People have different opinions on what makes a good mod list, you just have to find a server closest to your play style. Personally, some of the most fun I've had in Minecraft was doing a Botania skyblock pack - everyone has mods they like, and mods they dislike.

I agree with the title of this post, but that's about it. I would really appreciate it if everyone reached out and came to some sort of conclusion as to what we should do.

Here was my thought process and conclusion:

CC players mainly go on to CC servers to seek help, make, and demonstrate programs. Along with this though there's other groups of players that like it because it interfaces well with other mods, so they'll add mods to the game. I could go on and on with this, but I my main point is people have varying preferences when it comes to CC, so many that it would be impossible to manage a server that satisfies everyone's desires. So if we can't make a server that meets all expectations, what can we do? Enter Single Player: Tweaked (sounds familiar ;)/>). The idea here is to give everyone what they want while also providing them with a multiplayer experience. My theory is it would be as simple as placing a command computer down, running BagelBot, and adding a plugin.

Here's a list of what the plugin would do:

1) link all players chat together. This can easily be done with the chatbox, and would provide the same effect as being on a multiplayer server. The advantages of this are huge too, you don't have to deal with the latency of servers, and everything is being run on a local machine, the only mod requirements are CC and Computronics, or, Plethora. In addition this covers players that seek help, it would be as simple as typing it into chat, and then any player that's in game can respond.
2) allow users to share programs. The idea here is that a user would register a computer with this plugin, and then the capabilities described could take place. In this scenario, I will call the command !share. "!share send" would take two parameters, the name of the user that the program should be sent to, and the name of the program on the registered machine. The user the program is being sent to would get a notification, and have the choice to do "!share accept" or "!share reject". If the share is accepted, then the senders program is uploaded, and then downloaded by the receiver.

Additional things might want to be covered by this program and I am more than up for suggestions. Also, this may or may not be taken well, I would really like to see opinions.

hugeblank, on 10 February 2018 - 07:16 PM said:

I agree with the title of this post, but that's about it. I would really appreciate it if everyone reached out and came to some sort of conclusion as to what we should do.

Here was my thought process and conclusion:

CC players mainly go on to CC servers to seek help, make, and demonstrate programs. Along with this though there's other groups of players that like it because it interfaces well with other mods, so they'll add mods to the game. I could go on and on with this, but I my main point is people have varying preferences when it comes to CC, so many that it would be impossible to manage a server that satisfies everyone's desires. So if we can't make a server that meets all expectations, what can we do? Enter Single Player: Tweaked (sounds familiar ;)/>). The idea here is to give everyone what they want while also providing them with a multiplayer experience. My theory is it would be as simple as placing a command computer down, running BagelBot, and adding a plugin.

Here's a list of what the plugin would do:

1) link all players chat together. This can easily be done with the chatbox, and would provide the same effect as being on a multiplayer server. The advantages of this are huge too, you don't have to deal with the latency of servers, and everything is being run on a local machine, the only mod requirements are CC and Computronics, or, Plethora. In addition this covers players that seek help, it would be as simple as typing it into chat, and then any player that's in game can respond.
2) allow users to share programs. The idea here is that a user would register a computer with this plugin, and then the capabilities described could take place. In this scenario, I will call the command !share. "!share send" would take two parameters, the name of the user that the program should be sent to, and the name of the program on the registered machine. The user the program is being sent to would get a notification, and have the choice to do "!share accept" or "!share reject". If the share is accepted, then the senders program is uploaded, and then downloaded by the receiver.

Additional things might want to be covered by this program and I am more than up for suggestions. Also, this may or may not be taken well, I would really like to see opinions.

A CC Based plugin system is a horrible idea. Not only could a rogue staff member be able to just mod it and backdoor, but it would also be slow and not work well in general.

The SinglePlayer Tweaked sounds way to simple. If the only reason cc servers were popular was because of chat and sharing programs people would just use irc/discord and pastebin, there's even EiraIRC mod that could be used as a substitute for your command computer program.

CLNinja, on 10 February 2018 - 08:54 PM said:

A CC Based plugin system is a horrible idea. Not only could a rogue staff member be able to just mod it and backdoor, but it would also be slow and not work well in general.

What part of single player did you not understand.

Gorzoid, on 11 February 2018 - 12:53 PM said:

The SinglePlayer Tweaked sounds way to simple. If the only reason cc servers were popular was because of chat and sharing programs people would just use irc/discord and pastebin, there's even EiraIRC mod that could be used as a substitute for your command computer program.

CC servers are popular because it unifies all of what I said above, not because it has one or the other. It's the combination of chatting and sharing all in one interface that makes it enjoyable, and convenient. I probably should have made that more clear, apologies :P/>

hugeblank, on 11 February 2018 - 07:21 PM said:

Gorzoid, on 11 February 2018 - 12:53 PM said:

The SinglePlayer Tweaked sounds way to simple. If the only reason cc servers were popular was because of chat and sharing programs people would just use irc/discord and pastebin, there's even EiraIRC mod that could be used as a substitute for your command computer program.

CC servers are popular because it unifies all of what I said above, not because it has one or the other. It's the combination of chatting and sharing all in one interface that makes it enjoyable, and convenient. I probably should have made that more clear, apologies :P/>

What about the side of building (together, showing off builds, etc) or actually being in game with friends to show off programs, and actually interacting with the same computer. Or making networks like a lot of people enjoy doing? None of that is really possible in singleplayer.

CLNinja, on 11 February 2018 - 07:58 PM said:

What about the side of building (together, showing off builds, etc) or actually being in game with friends to show off programs, and actually interacting with the same computer. Or making networks like a lot of people enjoy doing? None of that is really possible in singleplayer.

Building togther/showing off builds: Would be difficult to do, but in theory you could clone a build, and then provided that the user has the right mods, it could be clouded over, and pasted into the receiving players world. I don't believe this is the most viable option though, it's just what I have off the top of my head.

Being in game to show off programs & interacting with the same computer: Could easily be done with a CC remote desktop program through http. Not saying that I have the skills to make it, but it is something that could be done.

Making networks: I'm not exactly sure I understand what you mean by "networks", could you elaborate?

hugeblank, on 11 February 2018 - 08:35 PM said:

CLNinja, on 11 February 2018 - 07:58 PM said:

What about the side of building (together, showing off builds, etc) or actually being in game with friends to show off programs, and actually interacting with the same computer. Or making networks like a lot of people enjoy doing? None of that is really possible in singleplayer.

Building togther/showing off builds: Would be difficult to do, but in theory you could clone a build, and then provided that the user has the right mods, it could be clouded over, and pasted into the receiving players world. I don't believe this is the most viable option though, it's just what I have off the top of my head.

Being in game to show off programs & interacting with the same computer: Could easily be done with a CC remote desktop program through http. Not saying that I have the skills to make it, but it is something that could be done.

Making networks: I'm not exactly sure I understand what you mean by "networks", could you elaborate?

Programs that use modem properly and communicate with each other, and being able to interact that way. Yes, its possible with a seperate server and http, but it's way too much overhead on a mod that already has too much overhead when running with other mods sometimes.

It's not a viable solution in this day and age to use a command computer for everything. It could definitely be used to incorporate players who can't connect to multiplayer, but it would be no replacement for Sponge/KCauldron/Etc.

hugeblank, on 11 February 2018 - 08:35 PM said:

CLNinja, on 11 February 2018 - 07:58 PM said:

What about the side of building (together, showing off builds, etc) or actually being in game with friends to show off programs, and actually interacting with the same computer. Or making networks like a lot of people enjoy doing? None of that is really possible in singleplayer.

Building togther/showing off builds: Would be difficult to do, but in theory you could clone a build, and then provided that the user has the right mods, it could be clouded over, and pasted into the receiving players world. I don't believe this is the most viable option though, it's just what I have off the top of my head.

Being in game to show off programs & interacting with the same computer: Could easily be done with a CC remote desktop program through http. Not saying that I have the skills to make it, but it is something that could be done.

Making networks: I'm not exactly sure I understand what you mean by "networks", could you elaborate?

All these you could do x and you could do y just adds too much complexity, and that means 1. nobody will make it and 2. people won't bother using it, at that point hosting your own server is easier.

Gorzoid, on 11 February 2018 - 10:13 PM said:

- snip

All these you could do x and you could do y just adds too much complexity, and that means 1. nobody will make it and 2. people won't bother using it, at that point hosting your own server is easier.

I have to agree with you there. There's only so much you can do to appeal to let's say at most 50 people with a severe difference in taste. The best thing that I can think of to appeal to as many people as possible is dumping a survey here and figuring out generally what people like. However finding that out is the least of our collective concerns. Who will host this "Universal server", who will moderate, who can we trust, who can't we trust, How reliable is this server going to be, etc, etc. I'm pretty sure there's a lot more than our preference that will affect how this server is taken by the community as a whole. I can say this from a firsthand standpoint.

Saldor010, on 07 February 2018 - 08:42 PM said:

Just a reminder: Switchcraft is still only four days old. Let me know what the player count is in a few weeks.

~1 week update:

Competition leads to innovation. If there is only one server it is often mediocre at best (unless of course it killed out all the others, or has amazing leadership). Having two mediocre servers often leads to one of them becoming much better than the other, due to them trying to outdo the other one. While it may be nice to have a single permanent CC server, I appreciate the competition which leads to better servers overall.

There has only ever been short periods of time where no CC server existed at all, so, in my opinion, the point of a permanent one really doesn't outweigh the benefit of having servers that are seeking to always improve themselves.

valithor, on 14 February 2018 - 03:22 AM said:

Competition leads to innovation. If there is only one server it is often mediocre at best (unless of course it killed out all the others, or has amazing leadership). Having two mediocre servers often leads to one of them becoming much better than the other, due to them trying to outdo the other one. While it may be nice to have a single permanent CC server, I appreciate the competition which leads to better servers overall.

There has only ever been short periods of time where no CC server existed at all, so, in my opinion, the point of a permanent one really doesn't outweigh the benefit of having servers that are seeking to always improve themselves.

"Short periods of time" More like half a year!

Terra1, on 17 February 2018 - 02:47 PM said:

valithor, on 14 February 2018 - 03:22 AM said:

Competition leads to innovation. If there is only one server it is often mediocre at best (unless of course it killed out all the others, or has amazing leadership). Having two mediocre servers often leads to one of them becoming much better than the other, due to them trying to outdo the other one. While it may be nice to have a single permanent CC server, I appreciate the competition which leads to better servers overall.

There has only ever been short periods of time where no CC server existed at all, so, in my opinion, the point of a permanent one really doesn't outweigh the benefit of having servers that are seeking to always improve themselves.

"Short periods of time" More like half a year!

Over the past year I don't think i ever saw a time where there was not a single point where all the servers actively advertised were down.

Saldor010, on 07 February 2018 - 08:42 PM said:

Just a reminder: Switchcraft is still only four days old. Let me know what the player count is in a few weeks.

It's been about 2 months now, and the player count reached 32 today. By being worried that it will end soon, you are missing out on months of collaboration and fun! And the server has secured enough donations to run for many more months. You don't deserve to miss out on that, come join in and see what everyone is staying for!