Line of sight modems

Modems have a ridiculously short range, especially for a "global" positioning system. A real modem with any sort of legitimate external antenna should be able to go at least half a mile, which would be almost 1000 blocks.

As a compromise, how about making modems have a 64 block range through walls OR a 1000 block range or so with line of sight? Just send a vector from one computer to another, and if a block that isn't air is in the way, no go (back down to 64 range).

Config files are your friend.

the above post is true but new to 1.4.1 the higher the computer / turtle is the wider its range. so at 255 (top of the world) its range is over 300 blocks. making satellite (relay hight turtles / computers) the best method of communication over long range. as for line of sight laser communications it would be an interesting concept that would introduce some interesting design changers. example players / mobs breaking the signal.

I cant see this being added as wifi is currently a very effective system when used correctly.

[Random Concept]
make the light fiber optic cable that can travel over 1000 , 2000 meters (Only in straight line) and has 16 different Frequencies you can alter. This would make it backwards compatible with the pre existing Bundle cable systems. making the recipe require gold coating around glass making 32 or 64 (for it to be useful it must be cheep)

just my 2¢

Everyone always asks for longer range modems and the people in charge always say "change it in the config file".
Thus there are probably now more people who have had to go in the config file to change it than those who live with it on the default setting.

The height-range thing is all well and dandy, but some worlds have larger height limits and that is a long way up for a range increase.
Not to mention you can't play with a server's config files.

In short, you're probably wasting your breath (or fingers, as the case my be)

BigSHinyToys, on 11 August 2012 - 09:55 AM said:

the above post is true but new to 1.4.1 the higher the computer / turtle is the wider its range. so at 255 (top of the world) its range is over 300 blocks. making satellite (relay hight turtles / computers) the best method of communication over long range. as for line of sight laser communications it would be an interesting concept that would introduce some interesting design changers. example players / mobs breaking the signal.

I cant see this being added as wifi is currently a very effective system when used correctly.

[Random Concept]
make the light fiber optic cable that can travel over 1000 , 2000 meters (Only in straight line) and has 16 different Frequencies you can alter. This would make it backwards compatible with the pre existing Bundle cable systems. making the recipe require gold coating around glass making 32 or 64 (for it to be useful it must be cheep)

just my 2¢

I had a similar idea, you may or not have seen it, but the Local (private) Area Connection Cables was my latest addition to the suggestions area. It would be nice to have a bit of network privacy. Plus LAN games would be a bit more fun to code than rednet games.

It may be a long way up on some worlds - but turtles can be used. They could just go up until they reach the world height, then set up a computer, or communicate via rednet themselves.

Cloudy, on 12 August 2012 - 11:46 AM said:

It may be a long way up on some worlds - but turtles can be used. They could just go up until they reach the world height, then set up a computer, or communicate via rednet themselves.

And how are you supposed to program a computer after a turtle places it 200 blocks above your head? (if it even gets that far).
One mistake and it's a long climb up to correct it. The fact you can't ride turtles upwards makes things difficult. If you could ride them up like you can ride them down, it wouldn't be an issue, but otherwise, it's incredibly awkward.

Pharap, on 12 August 2012 - 03:13 PM said:

And how are you supposed to program a computer after a turtle places it 200 blocks above your head? (if it even gets that far).
One mistake and it's a long climb up to correct it. The fact you can't ride turtles upwards makes things difficult. If you could ride them up like you can ride them down, it wouldn't be an issue, but otherwise, it's incredibly awkward.

turtle places computer moves to its left places WIFI moves down places Disk drive Inserts disk into drive . turtle moves back up turtle turns on computer (there is a function for this) computer reads instructions from Disk and you have just created a satellite. This is the theory but should be possible.

BigSHinyToys, on 12 August 2012 - 03:18 PM said:

Pharap, on 12 August 2012 - 03:13 PM said:

And how are you supposed to program a computer after a turtle places it 200 blocks above your head? (if it even gets that far).
One mistake and it's a long climb up to correct it. The fact you can't ride turtles upwards makes things difficult. If you could ride them up like you can ride them down, it wouldn't be an issue, but otherwise, it's incredibly awkward.

turtle places computer moves to its left places WIFI moves down places Disk drive Inserts disk into drive . turtle moves back up turtle turns on computer (there is a function for this) computer reads instructions from Disk and you have just created a satellite. This is the theory but should be possible.

Incredibly awkward though. Would be a bit more worth it if it had a better range increase.
On top of which, won't the turtle stall if you don't follow it? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that if you don't follow turtles and they move into an unloaded chunk, they stop operating.

64 to 381 243% increase Not enough for ya ?? I have computers at sky level 255 and can communicate with them from bedrock so I think they load chunks vertically.

BigSHinyToys, on 12 August 2012 - 03:34 PM said:

64 to 381 243% increase Not enough for ya ?? I have computers at sky level 255 and can communicate with them from bedrock so I think they load chunks vertically.

Hrm, come to think of it that is the reason why there is a height limit.
It's still a bit awkwardish to have to go up that high for that level of reception. Particularly if the area you want to communicate with is about 400 blocks away from your house. And yes, you can make a half way mark, but I'm talking survival here, where resources like redstone and diamonds are often scarce on servers.

Pharap, on 12 August 2012 - 04:41 PM said:

Hrm, come to think of it that is the reason why there is a height limit.
It's still a bit awkwardish to have to go up that high for that level of reception. Particularly if the area you want to communicate with is about 400 blocks away from your house. And yes, you can make a half way mark, but I'm talking survival here, where resources like redstone and diamonds are often scarce on servers.

turtles can be used to place computer modem and disk drive, boot computer retrieve disk drive and return with the disk and disk drive total cost one computer + wifi + max 500 fuel, Required tools turtle wireless optional diamond required if you want to retrieve drive.
That is cheapest i can think up.

BigSHinyToys, on 12 August 2012 - 07:42 PM said:

Pharap, on 12 August 2012 - 04:41 PM said:

Hrm, come to think of it that is the reason why there is a height limit.
It's still a bit awkwardish to have to go up that high for that level of reception. Particularly if the area you want to communicate with is about 400 blocks away from your house. And yes, you can make a half way mark, but I'm talking survival here, where resources like redstone and diamonds are often scarce on servers.

turtles can be used to place computer modem and disk drive, boot computer retrieve disk drive and return with the disk and disk drive total cost one computer + wifi + max 500 fuel, Required tools turtle wireless optional diamond required if you want to retrieve drive.
That is cheapest i can think up.

Not including the computer at the base, and the other computer/diskdrive you need to expand it over 381, and then there's the awkward moment when you want to add functionality to the 'satellite' (in a loose term). Not to mention if you ever need to retrieve the satellite.

You can use a Remote File Server on the satellite that gives you shell access through communication of serialized tables over rednet…

Also if you want to retrieve the satellite, use gps locate to get it's position then use a turtle with this program:

while not turtle.detectUp() do
  turtle.up()
end
turtle.digUp()
while not turtle.detectDown() do
  turtle.down()
end

dimitriye98, on 12 August 2012 - 10:25 PM said:

You can use a Remote File Server on the satellite that gives you shell access through communication of serialized tables over rednet…

Also if you want to retrieve the satellite, use gps locate to get it's position then use a turtle with this program:

while not turtle.detectUp() do
  turtle.up()
end
turtle.digUp()
while not turtle.detectDown() do
  turtle.down()
end

Firstly, gps is awkward and inaccurate.
It's no where near accurate enough to risk with that code, as your turtle would be lost indefinitely is you were a single block out.
After having had to scrape my turtle off the ceiling of the nether, it's definitely not something I would try without utter confidence I was right about the location.
A safer method would be to make it log its y co-ordinate and then make it turn back once it reaches the world height, so there's no risk of loosing it and if you screw up, you can try again.

Pharap, on 12 August 2012 - 11:48 PM said:

dimitriye98, on 12 August 2012 - 10:25 PM said:

You can use a Remote File Server on the satellite that gives you shell access through communication of serialized tables over rednet…

Also if you want to retrieve the satellite, use gps locate to get it's position then use a turtle with this program:

while not turtle.detectUp() do
  turtle.up()
end
turtle.digUp()
while not turtle.detectDown() do
  turtle.down()
end

Firstly, gps is awkward and inaccurate.
It's no where near accurate enough to risk with that code, as your turtle would be lost indefinitely is you were a single block out.
After having had to scrape my turtle off the ceiling of the nether, it's definitely not something I would try without utter confidence I was right about the location.
A safer method would be to make it log its y co-ordinate and then make it turn back once it reaches the world height, so there's no risk of loosing it and if you screw up, you can try again.

Do you take pleasure in ignoring everything I say and pushing your own solution regardless? See how far 381 blocks in each direction gives you. It is surprisingly far.

Cloudy, on 13 August 2012 - 12:43 AM said:

Pharap, on 12 August 2012 - 11:48 PM said:

dimitriye98, on 12 August 2012 - 10:25 PM said:

You can use a Remote File Server on the satellite that gives you shell access through communication of serialized tables over rednet…

Also if you want to retrieve the satellite, use gps locate to get it's position then use a turtle with this program:

while not turtle.detectUp() do
  turtle.up()
end
turtle.digUp()
while not turtle.detectDown() do
  turtle.down()
end

Firstly, gps is awkward and inaccurate.
It's no where near accurate enough to risk with that code, as your turtle would be lost indefinitely is you were a single block out.
After having had to scrape my turtle off the ceiling of the nether, it's definitely not something I would try without utter confidence I was right about the location.
A safer method would be to make it log its y co-ordinate and then make it turn back once it reaches the world height, so there's no risk of loosing it and if you screw up, you can try again.

Do you take pleasure in ignoring everything I say and pushing your own solution regardless? See how far 381 blocks in each direction gives you. It is surprisingly far.

I wasn't talking about your solution, I was explaining why I don't like this other person's solution. I mean you for one should see the obvious flaw in it. Turtle goes up, doesn't hit anything, doesn't come back.

Turtle will either hit something, or hit the world height. In which case turtle.up() would return false.

Cloudy, on 13 August 2012 - 01:14 AM said:

Turtle will either hit something, or hit the world height. In which case turtle.up() would return false.

Then you have the issue of if a new block is placed below it by a player higher up than you, who may not even realise they've blocked the path of a turtle.

Which is incredibly unlikely, and you're just clutching at straws.

Cloudy, on 13 August 2012 - 02:05 AM said:

Which is incredibly unlikely, and you're just clutching at straws.

Either way, I still think it's a rather awkward way to do something that should be simpler.
I think I'll just build my house in the sky in future, it seems like the best solution.

You can make things as simple or complex as you like. A turtle could be used as a GPS host or bouncer without having to place a computer easily enough. Mining turtle would be able to ensure the sky above not blocked by digging through anything in its way.

Cloudy, on 13 August 2012 - 02:23 AM said:

You can make things as simple or complex as you like. A turtle could be used as a GPS host or bouncer without having to place a computer easily enough. Mining turtle would be able to ensure the sky above not blocked by digging through anything in its way.

I'm settled on it now, I'm going to build a house in the sky. A sky fort.

Yes sure, 381 is more useful than 64, but that doesn't make it terribly useful. Massive hassle to put satellites up there. Especially considering in survival, people routinely make bases 2-3000 blocks apart. Gotta set up 10 satellites to link up just 2 bases? …

Just not worth it at that point for most things. And considering that you can run linux for a cost of 7 stone, a piece of glass, and redstone… it is vastly out of the realm of what other things in this mod cost, comparatively.

I see no reason to not have it be triple what it is now normally, as well as virtually infinite laser line of sight (which aside from convenience would allow cool tripwire systems and a major role for GPS in guiding where your turtles and servers aim at and whatnot)

The default range is not increasing - and due to the mechanics of minecraft Line of Sight modems wouldn't be too pheasible either due to chunk unloads.

I will speak to dan regardless, but I very much doubt it will be a yes.

I don't understand why Turtles don't know their world position. Just simply turtle.x, turtle.y, turtle.z available to lua. Am I missing something? What is the story behind this decision?

lol watch out, I learned recently that bumping threads is a hazardous and stupid endeavour (no offence, I'm talking about me) Dan200 said that it was too easy, it's like cheating…. The GPS system is a nightmarish one when it comes to math alone so I doubt you will persuade him to change it now. It was nigh impossible before he developed a full system to work it out

Thanks for your reply. Just for the record: I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I've seen the GPS script; It actually does the same thing as real GPS. Super-sweet! Increasing the wireless rednet distance makes GPS very useful (thank god I'm a server admin). Just trying to figure out why certain decisions were made. Thanks again :D/>/>

So on the subject on GPS, why doesn't the GPS actually get the world x,y,z coordinates? I have never seen an explanation that explains it in terms I can understand.

craniumkid22, on 07 September 2012 - 08:00 PM said:

So on the subject on GPS, why doesn't the GPS actually get the world x,y,z coordinates? I have never seen an explanation that explains it in terms I can understand.

The same reason turtles don't. Computers and turtles don't know where they are, so neither does the GPS program unless you tell it where it is.

So what you are saying, is that you should still use the satellites, but have it transmit it's "true" location?
Seems like it's just an extra step. What do you mean by it doesn't know where it is? Can't that be coded in to check the x,y, and z coordinates when they're placed? Sorry if it sounds stupid, but I just don't get the mod coding THAT well, just thinking in terms that I understand.

Of course the turtles know where they are in code - but think about it from within the game world. Consider that you're a turtle - you've just been placed down in the world. How would you know where you are without any frame of reference?

Cloudy, on 07 September 2012 - 08:29 PM said:

Of course the turtles know where they are in code - but think about it from within the game world. Consider that you're a turtle - you've just been placed down in the world. How would you know where you are without any frame of reference?

I guess that makes sense…. I just wish it would actually use the world coordinates without me using the GPS… Oh well, more work for me. :D/>/>

Someone really needs to design a triangulation API to replace the GPS one. The GPS system just doesn't work for how most people want it.
I've got a triangulation system, but it's only 2D at the moment, I'm going to see if I can get some of the people in gamedev to help with it since my mathematical skill is somewhat lacking. Otherwise hopefully Ironstaunch industries can help.
Regardless I strongly believe a triangulation system would be much better than GPS, and should anyone be able to create one and feels generous to do so, I think the whole CC community would benefit.

Pharap, on 07 September 2012 - 11:26 PM said:

Someone really needs to design a triangulation API to replace the GPS one. The GPS system just doesn't work for how most people want it.
I've got a triangulation system, but it's only 2D at the moment, I'm going to see if I can get some of the people in gamedev to help with it since my mathematical skill is somewhat lacking. Otherwise hopefully Ironstaunch industries can help.
Regardless I strongly believe a triangulation system would be much better than GPS, and should anyone be able to create one and feels generous to do so, I think the whole CC community would benefit.

Wikipedia:

Wikipedia]In trigonometry and geometry said:

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is any way to work out the angle from just a distance? That is why trilateration is used in the first place.

Cloudy, on 07 September 2012 - 11:35 PM said:

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is any way to work out the angle from just a distance? That is why trilateration is used in the first place.

It can be done providing you set up computers at fixed points, tell them their co-ordinates, thus giving you all points but the one you are trying to figure out on top of all the relevant distances. From there you can figure out the other angles and thus eventually pin-point the computer you are trying to locate.

With the one I've got, the system currently requires the same user input that the GPS system uses, so there's nothing inherently different from the user side of things compared to the current GPS system, the main difference is mostly code-side. It's more exact but still flawed because it only does 2D co-ordinates, and I'm not releasing it until I get it doing 3D co-ords.

The point is that it can be done, there are maths wizards out there capable of such a feat, whether one is kind enough to help the community with this undertaking is entirely up to chance and the will of the community.

Pharap, on 08 September 2012 - 12:02 AM said:

Cloudy, on 07 September 2012 - 11:35 PM said:

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is any way to work out the angle from just a distance? That is why trilateration is used in the first place.

It can be done providing you set up computers at fixed points, tell them their co-ordinates, thus giving you all points but the one you are trying to figure out on top of all the relevant distances. From there you can figure out the other angles and thus eventually pin-point the computer you are trying to locate.

With the one I've got, the system currently requires the same user input that the GPS system uses, so there's nothing inherently different from the user side of things compared to the current GPS system, the main difference is mostly code-side. It's more exact but still flawed because it only does 2D co-ordinates, and I'm not releasing it until I get it doing 3D co-ords.

The point is that it can be done, there are maths wizards out there capable of such a feat, whether one is kind enough to help the community with this undertaking is entirely up to chance and the will of the community.

In other words it's exactly like the existing GPS but written from scratch? (And that's trilateration not triangulation)

Gavjenks, on 13 August 2012 - 06:57 AM said:

Yes sure, 381 is more useful than 64, but that doesn't make it terribly useful. Massive hassle to put satellites up there. Especially considering in survival, people routinely make bases 2-3000 blocks apart. Gotta set up 10 satellites to link up just 2 bases? …

first of all, the only hassle of making satelites is programming a turtle and letting it go
2-3000 blocks is a long way, it took me 2 minecraft days to walk 2.3 km, i dont think anyones going to build anything that far away conidering they would have to walk far to trade with someone

Cloudy, on 07 September 2012 - 11:35 PM said:

Wikipedia:

Wikipedia]In trigonometry and geometry said:

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is any way to work out the angle from just a distance? That is why trilateration is used in the first place.

triateration is used because there can be multiple hosts and because with triangulation the hosts have to get their own realative positions to calculate angles making it much much more complicated

If wireless redstone and redpower are installed, you could always try to use bundled cables and wireless receivers/transmitters to connect two really far away computers.

High sky range is useful, but only if you are doing something at the surface. For example if you have turtle mining near bedrock, that is more than 200 blocks just for height difference, leaving again very small range for actual X/Z difference.

Also I'm also unable to found more in-depth info on how range changes with height, but I assume that if one computer is at bedrock and one at sky limit, it would not be using maximum range?

Cookiebal, on 11 September 2012 - 05:17 PM said:

If wireless redstone and redpower are installed, you could always try to use bundled cables and wireless receivers/transmitters to connect two really far away computers.

AFAIK Wireless redstone does not support bundled cables, so your best bet is to turn redstone on/off at fast rate. And maximum possible rate with that would still be 20bps, which is not really useful for any longer transmission except for just "pings" or short commands.



I think current modems are fine, since they are cheap anyway. But it would be cool to have some sort of high-range equipment that would be more expensive alternative to modems.

Changing configs is cheating option. I might as well go into creative and spawn myself anything.

the broadcast range at 255 is 384 meters. any WIFI within that circle can communicate with the WIFI at the center of it. so it one is a bed rock it can communicate with a turtle at the top of the world.

BigSHinyToys, on 12 September 2012 - 09:21 PM said:

the broadcast range at 255 is 384 meters. any WIFI within that circle can communicate with the WIFI at the center of it. so it one is a bed rock it can communicate with a turtle at the top of the world.

How dare you use math and logic to solve this problem! Nice diagram by the way, did you make it?

yes i did make it with Google sketch up very nice little program and easy to use to

Yes, but can bedrock turtle send signals to the top turtle? AFAIK You need to request GPS position first. And routers in between are not useful for GPS, because it needs direct distance from gps computer to turtle.

matejdro, on 13 September 2012 - 07:55 AM said:

Yes, but can bedrock turtle send signals to the top turtle? AFAIK You need to request GPS position first. And routers in between are not useful for GPS, because it needs direct distance from gps computer to turtle.

In computercraft the larger of the two radius is used. so a turtle at bedrock can communicate with a GPS cluster at the top of the world. This makes not much sense from a realisms stand point but makes redsnet a little easer to uses as if you can receive you are capable of broadcasting yo them as well.

this leads to a one small logic problem. two turtles that are too far apart to communicate with each other but can communicate with the same GPS cluster.

Oh, okay. That makes it more clear. By the way, it would be cool if information like that and maybe above picture would be added to wiki, because I was unable to find any more indepth information about how this actualyl works. Maybe range formula would be cool oo.

But still, even with range of 300 blocks it's nearly useless if your turtle is at bedrock and your GPS station at the top of the world, because there is difference of 250 blocks even if turtle is right bellow gps station. So, there is not much range increase.

matejdro, on 13 September 2012 - 03:01 PM said:

Oh, okay. That makes it more clear. By the way, it would be cool if information like that and maybe above picture would be added to wiki, because I was unable to find any more indepth information about how this actualyl works. Maybe range formula would be cool oo.

But still, even with range of 300 blocks it's nearly useless if your turtle is at bedrock and your GPS station at the top of the world, because there is difference of 250 blocks even if turtle is right bellow gps station. So, there is not much range increase.

there is a 284 Meter radius circle at bed rock where turtles will be in range of the GPS cluster. this is much bigger than the perverse 64 meters. in the end it comes down to personal preference as to where you set up your GPS beacons what in what arrangement. Me personally I just send a turtle to the sky wait for GPS cluster be be created at hight limit

Bit of a late reply.

matejdro, on 12 September 2012 - 04:43 PM said:

Cookiebal, on 11 September 2012 - 05:17 PM said:

If wireless redstone and redpower are installed, you could always try to use bundled cables and wireless receivers/transmitters to connect two really far away computers.

AFAIK Wireless redstone does not support bundled cables, so your best bet is to turn redstone on/off at fast rate. And maximum possible rate with that would still be 20bps, which is not really useful for any longer transmission except for just "pings" or short commands.

16 receivers+transmitters per side, one per colour, is what I meant. unless the delays caused by the workaround breaks it. The speed will be a lot slower, but you don't have to worry about the distance anymore, and doesn't need a bunch of chunk loaders between two connected bases to stay functional if they're far away.