[1.4] Turtle power limit

Hi!,
I try to expose this idea in minecraftforum.net but its overcrowded with post, so I will explain it again here.

In survival mode, I think that turtles are overpowered. They are too easy to build and with a little of code you can do things better than BuildCraft Quarrys for example with NO effort.

I suggest:
1) Add some kind of fuel/energy that they consume to work (like coal? water? steam? redstones?).
2) Or you can add limits to distance between turtles and some kind of terminal, so you have to spread a "net" of something (other computers with wifi?) to make them functional in a specific range. That "antenas" could be upgraded with some kind of hardware to extends its reach. If the wifi have 50 block limits… maybe turtles must have something like that to limit its power.
3) Or a machine like a dock station that recharge the turtle batteries when a turtle park on it. That machine can be recharged using coal (and/or water… steam) if you don't want to add other new items to the mod.

Some people complains that they don't want a complex way to use turtles… but there is a simple solution:

a) if you want simple… use creative mode (fuel/energy system should be disabled automatically?).
b) if you want some difficult, use survival (gather resources to sustain that turtles).
c) if you want survival, WITHOUT fuel/energy system, a simple disable option in the config file could solve the problem.

Thanks!

the turtles biggest disadvantage is its limited inventory space. if you use a turtle in combination with other mods that add their own ores (say redpower for example it and computercraft go hand in hand practically) you will run out of space when you collect 9 different types of block. meaning by the time you hit diamonds your turtle is dropping all the blocks it mines on the ground. you will find that to fix this you will either have to A. baby sit your turtles or B. devise a more complex mining program(i think if you choose B you darn well deserve something better than a quarry)

so if you ask I would say no a turtle doesn't need fuel consumption for 2 reasons.

1. tech wise its a step above buildcraft
2. a turtle is either more trouble than a quarry or you with the effort you put into it you deserve to have something better than a quarry

the computer craft wiki actually has something to say about turtle fuel you should check it out
http://computercraft.info/wiki/index.php?title=Turtle

and finally if you really want to make thing harder on your self you have these options(and this goes for every one in the "NERF EVERTHING!/ee haters" camp)
1.hardcore mode
2.roleplay fuel consumption by throwing things in lava
3.use custom recipes to make the turtle harder to build for yourself
4.wait until the peripheral api is released (soon) and make your own add-on that adds fuel consumption mechanics
5.don't play computercraft

IMO turtles are no comparison to how easy buildcraft quarries are, once built. They both require diamonds to build, and management on a quarry is easy. Just plop a chest down and wait. Then move quarry repeat. Quarry size any limit 64x64 max. Yea they need power but how easy it it to run quarries off redstone engines? Turtle fuel would be retarded imo, and just adds another dependancy if fuel form another mod is used. A robot runs on coal? i could see a new slot for redstone consumption,but meh. These things still do not make BC machines obsolete, and not everyone uses BC anyway

oh yeah I forgot quarries can run for free. I'll remember that next time some one says "nerf this cause computercraft is easier than buildcraft"

really the only place imposed fuel consumption would matter is in smp so its really an issue to take up with your admin to implement some sort of balance addon/plugin/controversial server rule.

FuzzyPurp, on 01 March 2012 - 05:41 AM said:

… A robot runs on coal? …

I said "coal" as an example B)/>/> . If you can imagine a robot with infinite energy source like 1.3, I can imagine a steampunk-electronic robot style working with coal and water :unsure:/>/>

francogp, on 01 March 2012 - 06:07 AM said:

FuzzyPurp, on 01 March 2012 - 05:41 AM said:

… A robot runs on coal? …

I said "coal" as an example B)/>/> . If you can imagine a robot with infinite energy source like 1.3, I can imagine a steampunk-electronic robot style working with coal and water B)/>/>

Well put some coal in one of its slots and code it to dispense 1 every 5 movements or something.. :unsure:/>/>

Coal generators aren't exactly in impossible thing. I also think fuel on turtles would be a nice idea.

Next time you forbid Turtle levitation, then nonbreaking pick, then whatelse…
Game must be fun, not a burden.
I do not like levitation, but think about a things, you need for normal movement system: jump engine with ability to jump on step, place a block under yourself and dig a block injump; ability to dig not up, down and forward, but at least forward-down; ability to detect blocks, you do not touch directly to see if you descend safely…
Think more!

6677 you need to read this again

passinglurker, on 01 March 2012 - 05:26 AM said:

the computer craft wiki actually has something to say about turtle fuel you should check it out
http://computercraft...hp?title=Turtle

and finally if you really want to make thing harder on your self you have these options(and this goes for every one in the "NERF EVERTHING!/ee haters" camp)
1.hardcore mode
2.roleplay fuel consumption by throwing things in lava
3.use custom recipes to make the turtle harder to build for yourself
4.wait until the peripheral api is released (soon) and make your own add-on that adds fuel consumption mechanics
5.don't play computercraft

alot of you nerfers may think this is a good idea but there are more people who see these suggestions as needlessly crippling turtles. you should think of suggestions that expand computercrafts functionality not limit it.

so for example

"hey lets nerf turtles, make them harder to craft, and burn fuel"=FLAMEWAR!

"hey lets add a way to make turtles move faster by adding an inventor slot specifically for burning fuel and that fuel will give the turtle a temporary speed boost (the turtles will go normal speed the rest of the time), and then we can add a new type of turtle the uses ironblocks instead of ingots to make a more fuel efficient turtle meaning he goes normal with out fuel and goes fast for longer with fuel"=good idea

passinglurker, on 01 March 2012 - 06:39 PM said:

"hey lets add a way to make turtles move faster by adding an inventor slot specifically for burning fuel and that fuel will give the turtle a temporary speed boost (the turtles will go normal speed the rest of the time), and then we can add a new type of turtle the uses ironblocks instead of ingots to make a more fuel efficient turtle meaning he goes normal with out fuel and goes fast for longer with fuel"=good idea

I agree with that, also, maybe add a turtle that uses iron pick but it loses durability and has to be replaced (not that i cant get a few diamonds, but I have a disposable minefield in mind :unsure:/>/> )

The original plan was to make the pick degrade, not sure if that will ever be implemented now at this point or not :unsure:/>/>

it's not a good plan, now the turtles are more or less equals of BC quarries, and making the pick degrade would break that balance.

i agree breakable diamond pick mining turtle=no
breakable iron pick mining turtle=sure

Don't really want to get involved in the hot topic, though I also personally do not agree with fuel consumption or other means of trying to nerf turtles.

But to the original poster, it should be fairly simple to write a program as FuzzyPurp said that will work to limit similar to fuel.

Could just have a small API which has a "checkFuel()" function, when run it checks if there is any items in a specific slot (9 lets say), and if so then returns true, if not then false, and have any movement api code make a check to that to see if it has fuel, if it does then throw some away after so much movement if not then don't move.

Could also have the API function handle the 'fuel use', since there is no api to check which block id's are in the inventory it could use 'anything' as fuel so its limited by your own self-restraint, but would allow you to emulate 'fuel use' for yourself at least.

If you're going to do this, I would request that it is toggle-able, so that people who don't want the requirement of a fuel source can turn it off. BuildCraft's engines nearly destroyed that mod for me. They don't add any real functionality in positive terms, and all they do is reduce the flexibility of the pipes, by limiting where you can put them, and also wasting fuel on something which didn't previously need it.

Some people prefer hamstringing themselves and giving themselves handicaps for some reason, but I prefer freedom. Without limitations, I can often create far larger and more details mechanisms than I would be able to, if every single machine or device had an arbitrary fuel requirement.

Please open your mind. You might say that it is unrealistic, but as far as I am concerned, realism is not always a positive thing. I don't mind the idea of this being added in such a way that it can be turned off, so that you can have it if you want, but I don't need to; but adding it in such a way that I would be forced to live with it, would severely reduce my enjoyment of this mod.

I will also admit that in more general terms, I really wish multiplayer did not exist for Minecraft. I never use it, and I'm inclined to believe that Notch wouldn't be anywhere near as worried about "balance," as he is, if it wasn't for SMP. People ended up losing waterladders for no appreciable reason that I could see, and as soon as the redstone obsidian bug was mentioned, Notch immediately mentioned that it would have to be patched for SMP "balance," as well. Multiplayer "balance," was the single main thing which destroyed World of Warcraft. It was originally a single player game, and a lot of the class and spec combinations that people used to really enjoy in single player, were destroyed because of the demand for homogenised classes for the Arena.

So please, SMP players; do not just think solely of yourselves. There are other people who play this game, and we'd appreciate it if you didn't wreck it for us.

I think even giving fuel consumption as a dev endorsed option is a bad idea. those that are against fuel will be upset because. now that there is a harder way their creations are no longer considered "legit" and those for fuel will not be satisfied and start demanding more nerf's like the ability to turn off non-breaking picks, turn off levitation, and ultimately make these limitations mandatory.

we can go back and forth all day about quarries but the reality is true balance is impossible the best and developer can hope for is making it hard to guess which is truly better which is the point we are at now

the answer is simple if you want fuel
CODE IT YOUR SELF AND DO IT ON YOUR OWN SERVER

p.s. its unrealistic for mods to balance against each other and I can truly not think of a major mod that nerfs its self cause when its combined or paired against another mod it is considered overpowered.

passinglurker, on 04 March 2012 - 08:54 PM said:

I think even giving fuel consumption as a dev endorsed option is a bad idea. those that are against fuel will be upset because. now that there is a harder way their creations are no longer considered "legit" and those for fuel will not be satisfied and start demanding more nerf's like the ability to turn off non-breaking picks, turn off levitation, and ultimately make these limitations mandatory.

we can go back and forth all day about quarries but the reality is true balance is impossible the best and developer can hope for is making it hard to guess which is truly better which is the point we are at now

the answer is simple if you want fuel
CODE IT YOUR SELF AND DO IT ON YOUR OWN SERVER

p.s. its unrealistic for mods to balance against each other and I can truly not think of a major mod that nerfs its self cause when its combined or paired against another mod it is considered overpowered.

I concur!

petrus4, on 04 March 2012 - 08:15 PM said:

Please open your mind. You might say that it is unrealistic, but as far as I am concerned, realism is not always a positive thing.
…
So please, SMP players; do not just think solely of yourselves. There are other people who play this game, and we'd appreciate it if you didn't wreck it for us.

passinglurker, on 04 March 2012 - 08:54 PM said:

…
if you want fuel CODE IT YOUR SELF AND DO IT ON YOUR OWN SERVER

p.s. its unrealistic for mods to balance against each other and I can truly not think of a major mod that nerfs its self cause when its combined or paired against another mod it is considered overpowered.

I am open-minded, that's why I propose optional ideas. I don't want something realistic… I never said that (if you read, I propose coal/steam energy source for a ROBOT ¬¬). I don't want "compatibility" with other mods, I mention buildcraft as an example the of "complexity" that I want. I need something more according to the SURVIVAL GAME MODE (collect, craft….). A little bit more OPTIONAL "difficult". I don't think "solely of my own", that's why I said that fuel SHOULD be optional, for the people who want it. I don't want to "wreck the mod"… I want more complexity for people who want play more "dificult?" survival server, as an OPTIONAL FEATURE. I can code it in the OS, but it is not as efficient (CPU) as if it is coded IN the mod.

Excuse the caps, but I want to clear those points, because a lot of people here (as in the minecraft forum) do not understand my original post.

PD: @petrus4 You are loosing/missing a LOT OF FUN for not playing it in multiplayer mode!, for example, rol servers are the best!

BEGIN RANT

I believe I said it in my last post that even the(dev endorsed) OPTION of requiring fuel to allow the turtle to function is a BAD IDEA. you may be satisfied but others won't and they'll see it as an opening to propose their own nerfs. because either A. they are to lazy to wait for the 1.31 update that will implement the peripheral api (cc equivalent to buildcraft and industrial craft addons) and IMPLEMENT IT THEM SELVES. B. cause they are griefers and trolls that want ruin the mod or C. they have been deceived by said griefers and trolls.

I told how to make things challenging and that to take up the idea with your server cause that's the only place where any one would care about this idea(griefers hang out in servers after all)

really the peripheral api is hopefully as far as the dev's will go toward implementation your "optional fuel" by giving you the option to learn java and do it your self.

and as to your complexity comments
1. have you ever looked at redstone computers? complex enough for ya?
2. if you love buildcrafts complexity so much why don't you play buildcraft?
3. this isn't buildcraft not all mods can be buildcraft and the mod community would be really boring if everyone tried to make buildcraft scale mods
4. if you ever take college level programming classes the professor will likely inform you that computer programs are the most complex things man has ever devised and since this is a mod about computer programs maybe complex isn't the word you were looking for.

END RANT

now sorry for the strong language you do have the right to defend your self but. you have proposed your idea, and it has been rejected, and now you need to let it die. but please continue to come up with other ideas your enthusiasm for this mod is still encouraged.

passinglurker, on 05 March 2012 - 05:53 AM said:

2. if you love buildcrafts complexity so much why don't you play buildcraft?
3. this isn't buildcraft not all mods can be buildcraft and the mod community would be really boring if everyone tried to make buildcraft scale mods
4. if you ever take college level programming classes the professor will likely inform you that computer programs are the most complex things man has ever devised and since this is a mod about computer programs maybe complex isn't the word you were looking for.

I said (two or three times in the thread) that I point buildcraft as an EXAMPLE of the "complexity" that I want in ComputerCraft turtles. I'm not fan of builcraft… replace that word with Industrialcraft if you want (I like that mod more). Please, stop telling me "If you love X mod, got and play X… and don't play ComputerCraft". I want to play ComputerCraft, that's why I'm here in this forum, proposing ideas, and not in BuildCraft forum proposing ideas for them.

PD: I don't understand your 4th point
PD 2: I know that I have to "let die" the idea.. I keep writing in this thread, just because people write in it.

your suggestions are appreciated. my points (repeated here for clarity) are as follows

1.not all mods should(or can) be of the same SCALE as the big 3 industrial mods(buildcraft, redpower, industrialcraft)

2.any fuel (even optional) endorsed by dan200 in the form of including the option in the mod will ultimately make both sides of the debate unhappy.

3.there are other less controversial ways to increase how challenging the game is for yourself and for those playing with you in multiplayer

4.when 1.31 comes out you can learn java and mod computercraft to actually make real fuel consuming turtles and if it actually becomes popular enough then maybe it might get integrated into computercraft officially (an example success story is the pistons mod for minecraft, an example fail story is advanced machines for industrial craft)

if you need me to clarify further feel free to ask I'll try to hold back my tendency to rant.

I look forward to your NEXT idea

EDIT: didn't see your second "PD"-thing i'll take that as an attempt to bury the hatchet so just ignore this post or something

Thanks! :unsure:/>/>

passinglurker, on 05 March 2012 - 05:53 AM said:

2. if you love buildcrafts complexity so much why don't you play buildcraft?
3. this isn't buildcraft not all mods can be buildcraft and the mod community would be really boring if everyone tried to make buildcraft scale mods

No argument there. I'm getting tired of the giant "suite," mods, myself. Buildcraft was also less complex before SpaceToad added engines as mentioned, and IMHO it should have stayed that way.

I apologise, Franco. If fuel is added, but can be toggled off, then I have no objection to anyone having it who wants it. It will, however, remain off while I am using Turtles myself.

I, personally, like that turtles don't have fuel. However, I don't see the issue in there being an option for fuel.

The original "plan" was to have the pickaxe breaking when used enough times - however, dan forgot to implement that :unsure:/>/>

I personally think turtles are slow enough to not be OP in comparison to mods like BC and IC.

Oh god just stop it.
Yes, I want it to be added as an OPTION. Imagine us REAL CODERS coding the pain out of our ass coding a thing that will make the turtle refuel everytime it runs low. Oh wait, inserting things into the turtle automatically is impossible?
See?
If you would make an automatic turtle, go on.
Then if this gets added, you have to go to the digging site and refuel it.

Even BuildCraft would be better for digging for resources!
It has _unlimited_ space (can go to chests) where turtles have 9 SLOTS.
It can run with REDSTONE POWER. If this gets added, it is still better.

Now, think.
You make a turtle that digs deep undergound then comes to specific coords to drop the loop.
You make an ARMY of these.
Woops, one ran out of fuel.
Woops, two ran out of fuel.
Woops, my system got messed up.
Woops, that ran out of coal.
I refueled that one!
Oh dangit, that ran out of coal and it messed up the system. Now the turtles are dancing!
I'll go and refuel that one!
Oh wait, it still isn't fixed.
Oh god, now that ran out of fuel.
I NEED MORE COAL. DIG ME MORE COAL, TURTLES- oh wait….

the buildcraft argument actually got cleared(turtle fuel= turtle underpowered vs. quarry) a while ago.

but more importantly we should remember not to compare mods against each other because that leads to dependency on the mods your comparing yourself against.

the big reason I am so adamant against nerfs is that this isn't a big suite mod like buildcraft or industrial craft or redpower the only time we should consider nerfs and buffs is when we are comparing computercraft against its self or minecraft, and computer craft isn't big enough to need nerfing right now IMO

as for fuel as you pointed out fuel is bad for gameplay reasons. what if when the turtle runs out of fuel its in the middle of a lake of lava? or in mid air(layer 192 would be the perfect place for this to happen)? or is digging like a mole? the very concept of "turtle needs fuel to move" is either wrong or not worth the effort to implement

so how about this as a compromise (i have said something like this before)
turtles don't need fuel to move they need fuel to move faster. basically let turtles keep their current function and speed. then add a new item called the "turbo module" and this item will be used to craft another new item called the "turbo turtle" the "turbo turtle" will have the ability to pull flammable items from its inventory and burn them for a speed boost when instructed to do so.

so how does that sound? turtle made structures are still "legit" and logistics heads get to play with coal and supply chains. looks like a win win for every one

EDIT:heck cut the turbo module and just combine a turtle with a powered minecart to make a "turbo turtle" same result for half the effort

TheVarmari, on 05 March 2012 - 07:36 PM said:

Oh god just stop it.
Yes, I want it to be added as an OPTION. Imagine us REAL CODERS coding the pain out of our ass coding a thing that will make the turtle refuel everytime it runs low. Oh wait, inserting things into the turtle automatically is impossible?
See?
If you would make an automatic turtle, go on.
Then if this gets added, you have to go to the digging site and refuel it.

Even BuildCraft would be better for digging for resources!
It has _unlimited_ space (can go to chests) where turtles have 9 SLOTS.
It can run with REDSTONE POWER. If this gets added, it is still better.

Now, think.
You make a turtle that digs deep undergound then comes to specific coords to drop the loop.
You make an ARMY of these.
Woops, one ran out of fuel.
Woops, two ran out of fuel.
Woops, my system got messed up.
Woops, that ran out of coal.
I refueled that one!
Oh dangit, that ran out of coal and it messed up the system. Now the turtles are dancing!
I'll go and refuel that one!
Oh wait, it still isn't fixed.
Oh god, now that ran out of fuel.
I NEED MORE COAL. DIG ME MORE COAL, TURTLES- oh wait….

Thats why I propose a dock station, so they (turtles) can refuel automatically (with some lines of code) when they have low battery . So, You only have to refuel the dock station :unsure:/>/>

hey what happened to letting your old idea die? if your sincere thats means you'll stop defending it you should have told him he was late to the party and your open to ways the idea can be improved (so close to ranting right now)

passinglurker's points are valid. refueling stations would kill the turtles, at least for me. Right now i can code a turtle to go to for example 50000 50000 and it will eventually get there. But if fuel ever gets implemented, it'll be chained to the station and thus unable to explore. Turtles are slow and have limited cargo capacity and that's limiting enough. Every other mod you can mine for free after some playing (e.g. quarry run of redstone engines, miner powered by solars, redpower quarry (if it gets implemented)). That being the point, I can see no reason for nerfing the turtles.

passinglurker, on 05 March 2012 - 08:45 PM said:

hey what happened to letting your old idea die? if your sincere thats means you'll stop defending it you should have told him he was late to the party and your open to ways the idea can be improved (so close to ranting right now)

I said before that I keep writing on this thread because people keep writing in it. The post will die when nobody write in it… its a fact. Are you afraid that people continue to improve the idea to make it happend? if the idea is dead and nobody want this… that will never happend, so dont be afraid of sharing words

I have nothing against trying to improve the idea (I have proposed a way for there to be fuel in computer craft twice and you have never said a word about it) but what you are doing is that you are appearing to prop up the idea of the original post (that idea is as i understand it "add a config option to make turtles need fuel to move") and just trying to get the last word in next time some one writes in this thread ask for compromises to what the poster sees is wrong with your idea. that is how an idea gets improved and implemented. but so far this thread is on a train with a one way ticket to flamewar-ville(IT SHOULD BE NOTED THIS NOT MEANT TO BE THREAT TO START A FLAMEWAR) because you are you are appearing to be inflexible.

P.S. most of the people that keep writing don't seem to like fuel

It's 8:2 people against fuel (if i counted right). How about a pool to determine which option is more popular?

passinglurker, on 05 March 2012 - 09:28 PM said:

I have nothing against trying to improve the idea (I have proposed a way for there to be fuel in computer craft twice and you have never said a word about it) but what you are doing is that you are appearing to prop up the idea of the original post (that idea is as i understand it "add a config option to make turtles need fuel to move") and just trying to get the last word in next time some one writes in this thread ask for compromises to what the poster sees is wrong with your idea. that is how an idea gets improved and implemented. but so far this thread is on a train with a one way ticket to flamewar-ville(IT SHOULD BE NOTED THIS NOT MEANT TO BE THREAT TO START A FLAMEWAR) because you are you are appearing to be inflexible.

P.S. most of the people that keep writing don't seem to like fuel

I agree with you, but all the reply that I post here was for calrify my original post, with no intentions to offend or make a flameware thread.

but if the idea is dead there is no point clarifying it

so now that that is out of the way lets brain storm how fuel can be used to IMPROVE computercraft (making it harder is not an improvement it never is never will be)

this hasn't been the first time some one said "turtles need fuel" with out thinking all the way through and it won't be the last so lets come up with an idea that's good enough that no one feels inclined to suggest a bad fuel idea ever again (assuming they search the forums for previously proposed ideas first)

I'm not really sure, but I get the impression that everyone here thinks of the "fuel idea" as just a way to nerf turtles to achieve some sort of mystical power balance.
Am I the only one that can see the potential for new and potentially fun mechanics springing from not-infinite/allpowerful turtles? (It's not a rethoric question, I honestly want to know)

Recharge stations, modem-like "attachments" that can wirelessly receive power, power antennas, different tiers of turtles with different fuel capacity/consumption/etc
Turtle upgrades (just walk, vertical climbing, hovering, various movement and mining speeds, huge-inventory "transport" turtles, scanner modules to find ores, "boat on the head" modlues to brin the player around, etc)

I see the point "well there's addons now, you can just code it", but there's no point in making a mod that actually REMOVES "power" from an mod, noone will use it.

The way I see it, the best (imo ofcourse) route would be to leave the actual turtle in (infinite fuel, hovering and all) as a basic all-around and add "advanced" turtles later that have improved and specialized features (based on crafting recipe or "mod slots" for examples) but require more energy to run (along with a non-annoying energy system, such as long duration batteries with recharge station for basic models up to medium-long range wifi transmission for example for advanced models)
Those "advanced turtles" would maybe able to only run, not fly but they'd be faster, or transport more stuff but be unable to mine, or again mine really fast and hover but require a power source nearby, or have no inventory and ability to mine but be able to transport people, etc..

I could make more examples and expand on the idea trying to balance it, but it's not really the point at the moment, just throwing food for thougth out there to see what everyone else thinks.

That said, I think that even if it's pretty clearn I'm in favor of fuel and stuff on the turtles, if the choice was mine I wouldn't do it now, but only way down the road in the addon development. :unsure:/>/>

I've proposed a compromise similar to this (twice) I would say the basic idea that all these ideas have in common are as follows

keep turtles the way they are add turtle types that can in exchange for consuming resources provide superior performance

a simple way to do this would be something like. POWERED MINECART + (prefix)TURTLE = (prefix)TURBO TURTLE

I've described the turbo turtle in a previous post so read that for details.

one thing to keep in mind is IMO I don't think giving turtles the brains to just run back and recharge as a simple LUA statement fits in with the mod the next thing people will want is the ability to hunt diamonds with a single line of code(and you can use your imagination after that)

adding different advanced turtle functions is interesting but i think there should always be a slower freebie way to do things especially since this mod caters to more than just survivalists (survivalist = someone who would install an addon that kills functionality)

perhaps if there is a function or level of performance that requires fuel a turtle can be made to perform at that level without fuel if it takes a hit somewhere else (for example faster speed but it can't levitate without being next to a block)

I like both ideas (@Bard @passinglurker)

Ok adding a fuel option to turtles based on a way another mod tries to balance their mod, is fail. CC wasnt made to be balanced, it was made to have fun with. You want turtles to have fuel yet computers run with no electricity, off no EU or MJ. And no one has yet showed me how quarries or less OP'd then a turtle. Am i the only one who DOESN'T use turtles for mining, because im my opinion, turtle mining sucks compared to quarries, or even ic2 miners. Oh yea, try leaving a chunk with a turtle mining, i place a quarry, with a chunk loader and go to the end of the world and my quarry still runs..

I'll start by saying that I will be perfectly happy with and prefer a fuel free CC(I'm not going soft)

most of what you said(especially the parts about not comparing CC to other mods) I've already said multiple times. the reason I'm keeping this thread going is cause this isn't going to be the last time some one says "turtles op they need fuel". so instead of flamewaring them out of existence we can instead calmly say "its been discussed extensively before and we came up with a better idea than you and even that wasn't good enough this thread is now locked" other wise this issue will keep coming up like the lightning rod idea for IC2 every time CC gets attention and picks up new users. And if it does get implemented at least the damage will be minimized(at least compared to what would happen if dan200 listened to someones call for mandatory fuel)

perhaps it's an idea to only enable this if BC or IC2 or Redpower is installed?

Give the turtles a battery and let them fuel on those power sources?

its an idea but unfortunately its a bad idea

1.it would lead to dependency on when those mods update.

2.the idea does nothing to resolve the gameplay issues that go with mandating fuel (for example what if the turtle is in the middle of a lake of lava when it runs out of fuel?)

3.turtles are NOT overpowered stop trying to nerf them! If you can't think of any benefit to go with using fuel then don't say anything.

I vote NO to enabling mandatory fuel when cc is used with other mods.

I have an idea that may solve two problems at once. How about making a peripheral that uses fuel-powered free-moving turtles along with normal CC turtles?

I'm sorry, but I don't get it could you be a little more detailed?

well, it'd be a free-moving turtle, one not limited to block grid (basically a LUA controlled mob) that'd use fuel to run. Would be great to have, huh?

passinglurker, on 07 March 2012 - 08:45 PM said:

its an idea but unfortunately its a bad idea

1.it would lead to dependency on when those mods update.

2.the idea does nothing to resolve the gameplay issues that go with mandating fuel (for example what if the turtle is in the middle of a lake of lava when it runs out of fuel?)

3.turtles are NOT overpowered stop trying to nerf them! If you can't think of any benefit to go with using fuel then don't say anything.

I vote NO to enabling mandatory fuel when cc is used with other mods.

passinglurker, on 07 March 2012 - 08:45 PM said:

its an idea but unfortunately its a bad idea

1.it would lead to dependency on when those mods update.

2.the idea does nothing to resolve the gameplay issues that go with mandating fuel (for example what if the turtle is in the middle of a lake of lava when it runs out of fuel?)

3.turtles are NOT overpowered stop trying to nerf them! If you can't think of any benefit to go with using fuel then don't say anything.

I vote NO to enabling mandatory fuel when cc is used with other mods.

not mandatory, optional.

lot's of mods have optional settings. It'd be up to the player (singleplayer) or server (smp) to choose to do this or not.
Saying they depend on other mods updating is true, but if you look at technic / tekkit… it might be an idea.

However tbh, I kinda like them the way they are as of right now; IMO it's not really overpowered as there are a lot of mods out there that make mining a lot easier then this. Server-wise you don't even have that much of an issue, too many people don't know / don't want to know how to work with turtles and stuff, so it wouldn't really ruin the economy (in the server).

Liraal, on 07 March 2012 - 09:17 PM said:

well, it'd be a free-moving turtle, one not limited to block grid (basically a LUA controlled mob) that'd use fuel to run. Would be great to have, huh?

I proposed a programmable mob in the fighting turtle thread the big problem is mobs can be pushed which can throw off the turtle in order to fix this you either need to make the mobs code way more complex or the mob way more magical and autonomous it would seem its not worth the effort compared to the alternatives.

J0P5, on 07 March 2012 - 09:40 PM said:

not mandatory, optional.

if you ask me a switch that turns mandatory fuel on and off is the same as mandating turtles consume fuel. there would be for lack of a better word "political" consequences should dan200 add a mandatory fuel option I've detailed this multiple times before and I'm getting sick of repeating myself so read my old posts.

J0P5, on 07 March 2012 - 09:40 PM said:

lot's of mods have optional settings. It'd be up to the player (singleplayer) or server (smp) to choose to do this or not.
Saying they depend on other mods updating is true, but if you look at technic / tekkit… it might be an idea.

first off allot of people hate technic dan200 seems friendly enough to technic but you probably shouldn't use them as shining examples

second allot of these "optional settings" take the form of addons like teleport pipes for BC or compact solars and advanced machines for IC2 (try going into the IC2 forum and suggest that they integrate the advanced machines addon into the mod and just make it so you can turn them off/on in config. you probably won't get a positive response)

J0P5, on 07 March 2012 - 09:40 PM said:

However tbh, I kinda like them the way they are as of right now; IMO it's not really overpowered as there are a lot of mods out there that make mining a lot easier then this. Server-wise you don't even have that much of an issue, too many people don't know / don't want to know how to work with turtles and stuff, so it wouldn't really ruin the economy (in the server).

what does tbh mean? I agree I would prefer if CC stayed fuel free I'm simply trying to devise the best way for fuel to work in CC so that we can say even the best idea won't work.

Considering the effort needed to make a turtle work (especially for someone that doesn't know LUA already), it wouldn't feel overpowered if it ate cobble and dumped diamonds :mellow:/>/>
Anyway as for now they're far from overpowered, that's why I was suggesting "better specialist turtles" and as I see it, fuel would be just another game mechanic added that you'd need to care about only if you want to dabble in the "advanced turtles" part.
And yes, it would work great also as an addon/perhiperal.

If you want lua programmed mob free of grid, do not name it turtle.
Let it be "Rabbit" or other name. Turtle as moving block works good.

passinglurker, on 07 March 2012 - 10:01 PM said:

Liraal, on 07 March 2012 - 09:17 PM said:

well, it'd be a free-moving turtle, one not limited to block grid (basically a LUA controlled mob) that'd use fuel to run. Would be great to have, huh?

I proposed a programmable mob in the fighting turtle thread the big problem is mobs can be pushed which can throw off the turtle in order to fix this you either need to make the mobs code way more complex or the mob way more magical and autonomous it would seem its not worth the effort compared to the alternatives.

And if i remember, it was me who pointed the difficulties :mellow:/>/> But I still think it's a good idea for a peripheral.

Sebra, on 08 March 2012 - 12:10 PM said:

If you want lua programmed mob free of grid, do not name it turtle.
Let it be "Rabbit" or other name. Turtle as moving block works good.

I never said that it has to be named turtle, the name was just a simile to make imagining it easier.

And here's a new idea! Crafting Turtle and Furnace Turtle. Guess what these'd do.

I guess these'd be rejected :mellow:/>/>
"To be able to work with block" is not "to be such block".

There is an issue (coding wise) with every idea proposed.
I think there is balance with turtles, but not in the sense that any other mods use.
With turtles the challenge is creating the program for it. Weather it's to mine then deposit items then mine more or to cut down trees. Turtles are supplied with a very basic api, there is no way to have them automatically go back and deposit items then mine some more. It has to be coded by you. And that time effort needs some reward so that reward is riches, limitless diamonds, a great quarrying program. But there will (just about) always be bugs, things for you to fix, make better or tweak and that in a sense is the balance that turtles use. They are not physically limited (like quarries are to your bc power or pickaxes are with durability) but they are limited by what you create for them.

And that is my argument, now when you use others' code then that is your choice, its like using someone elses mob trap design, copying a design takes little/no time and is easy to get huge amounts of drops. But building that mob trap yourself takes days (real life days) of trial and error and that is the same process used to code a turtle (if not making turtle programs are harder since it has more possible bugs).

Simply put… ATM turtles are way over powered for their rediculously cheap build cost. I can do more with a turtle than I ever could with a quarry with the same maintenance or less.
But it costs far leas in diamonds to build…
Or take anything to up keep…
And has a relatively unlimited quarry size…

The only real "cost" is the program.
But copypasta is hard amirite?

Anyone saying they're on par with quarries is either grossly uninformed or doesn't know how to program their way out of a do loop.

Your message is so complex that i have to reply in points:

1)how about having only 9 slots for items? a quarry can be linked to a hundred of chests and still work.
2)you cannot really mine a really big area with turtles, cause sooner or later they get to unloaded chunks
3)copypasting=/give command, at least as far as CC is concerned - you do it if you don't want this particular thing to be a challenge
4)have you read about the concept of mod balancing only against itself?
5)you can mine with RP block breaker, it runs for free.
6)why do you want to limit yourself? (this one i can't find an answer for)
7)it is rude to insult people simply for disagreeing with you.
8)it is dan's call to make

sorry if i seem pushy, but i am really against nerfing turtles and i fail to even find reasons to do so. If you don't like them, modify their recipe or don't use them at all, but do not push your (rare) view on all others.

Well, that was my view of the issue.

Like wise I will respond in points. :(/>/>

1) turtle.drop() + obsidian pipe == WIN
2) Same problem exists with quarries, but then again we have chunk loader blocks for that.
3) My point is, once written it can be redeployed on any map and any time. Even w/o copy paste. Once I've written it, I will do it 2x as fast the next time. And likely better. All with little effort. If you on the same server, you can drop 100's of them and run around with a floppy disk for 20 min…
4) Yes, yes I have. They problem with that concept is when you mod is rarely ran by it self. You should consider how the player base is using the mod and adjust accordingly. Computer Craft integrates well with Redpower, but it's not required. Why not give us the same options to use EUs from IC2? (as and example)
5) Yes I agree the RP block break is also ridiculous. But that doesn't exactly mean we all should use that as an excuse to leave things completely unbalanced.
6) I don't think it would limit me at all. I don't complain that needing rare diamonds for my diamond pick ax is "limiting", I say your balancing the cost with the gain. Computers I always thought were stupid cheap to build, but the couldn't do anything more that orchestrate what you could already accomplish, but more automated. But turtles allow for serious world modification with little cost. (3 diamonds for the miner)
7) You admittedly come across as pushy. I can be a bit harsh when people say spending three diamonds and 20 min at text editor compares with the cost of a quarry which requires much more resources to build and the power to maintain it, which isn't always the easiest task. It's just plain wrong.
8) Indeed it is. But this here be the suggestions and ideas section… thus we're "passionately" discussing the validity of this concept.

If you want to tell me that this mod is not intended, nor will ever attempt to be balanced along side other widely used mods. (RedPower, IC2, BC, etc) Then great. End of discussion. My arguments are rendered null and void. I will happily crawl back from wince I came and not speak of giving turtles some manner of maintenance cost.

But if Dan, it his call to make after all, is wanting to have some manner of cost:gain ratio similar to BC's quarry (block breaker's stupid, yes) then it needs some tweaking. Picks that break, turtle's need to dock at a charging peripheral to recharge, something.

That's my view of the issue. :)/>/>

Facing a cultural opponent is an exciting thing indeed. :(/>/>

But I have one more idea: if detected BC, the recipe should change into one with a diamond casing (for example). This should suit about every side of this argument (or maybe not those, who want their turtles to burn coal :)/>/> )

How about that?

Indeed. :)/>/>

Something would probably work. Although I'd me more interested in seeing the "mining" rate of turtles reduced to on par or slightly slower that when you mine. And add some manner of upkeep to the turtle to keep them running. Even if it was just that after so long the moved to a crawl until recharged.

I really like turtles, but I'd love to see they're effectiveness as a single unit reduced so that the way we do large scale projects, like a quarry would be to involve many turtles. So the build cost wouldn't need adjusting because like 6-7 turtles would be as good as a quarry, and so the expense of each would be about the same. That would make the "cost" involved with programming a little more..

But I'd still like to see some manner of power requirement. Even if the never stopped truly working, quantum ionizing engine and all, but by "recharging" them you kept them moving at max speed, which would be slower than I could do alone… but when there 6 of them… it's oh so tasty.

And I would love to write the software required for designation workloads across all turtles while managing their recharge cycles and drop off location. Making turtle small cogs in a large machine. So then you can have turtle mining materials to make turtles, turtles deploying turtles, etc… etc…

But I guess that's more complex that just conditionally changing the recipe… :(/>/>

francogp


Is right!

And yes this is an SMP issue.. For SMP players and for Admins who want to add ComputerCraft for their players..

Some ppl in this thread are saying..

Oh my GOD My turtle can run out of POWER and drop to where ever.. or I CAN make my Turtle go to 5000x5000 or even 50000 x 50000

It will not go there unless the are is in memory I doubt that CC keeps turtle occupied chunks in memory.

And learn to code your turtle so It would return home to get power. NOT COAL! Using coal is stupid!

Turtle IN SMP world should take some model from Vacuum Cleaning Robots.

1. A docking Station
2. A CC power system to witch you can convert IC2 or BC power (Cc doesn't actually have to have any power blocks except the docking station (plugin block that allows you to run your computers + power your turtles.
3. A consumption rate that can be changed from 0 to 100% over tic
4. I belive this is allready an addon but "A block that enables interaction with the power station so you can load it with batteries and so it can interact with other storage stuff"


And also minecraft IS about micro managing stuff.. At least SMP should be.. So no one person could do stuff alone.. To Force co-op gaming..


And finally this is a Request from SMP admins who would like to add this feature to He's/Hears server.

I think making turtles require a form of power has no use. For the simple reason that if you make it require something (for instance coal), you can just make another turtle for gathering and dropping coal, give the other turtles a line to pick the coal up and you are done.

It's still fully automated, requires no (extra) personal effort, so it doesn't really change anything.


Turtles are always going to be able to provide for themselves in a way, making them require energy redundant.

About the pick that brakes thing, I think that it could use a wood/diamond drill that does NOT brake but brakes the blocks each pick does (wood pick only coble and coal and so on..)

J0P5, on 06 April 2012 - 12:21 PM said:

I think making turtles require a form of power has no use. For the simple reason that if you make it require something (for instance coal), you can just make another turtle for gathering and dropping coal, give the other turtles a line to pick the coal up and you are done.

It's still fully automated, requires no (extra) personal effort, so it doesn't really change anything.


Turtles are always going to be able to provide for themselves in a way, making them require energy redundant.

Yees.. a quary can allso support it self by collecting coal/redstone/what ever it uses to power BC quaries.. or future RedPower Quaries..

JoneK, on 07 April 2012 - 06:14 AM said:

J0P5, on 06 April 2012 - 12:21 PM said:

I think making turtles require a form of power has no use. For the simple reason that if you make it require something (for instance coal), you can just make another turtle for gathering and dropping coal, give the other turtles a line to pick the coal up and you are done.

It's still fully automated, requires no (extra) personal effort, so it doesn't really change anything.


Turtles are always going to be able to provide for themselves in a way, making them require energy redundant.

Yees.. a quary can allso support it self by collecting coal/redstone/what ever it uses to power BC quaries.. or future RedPower Quaries..

The BIG difference is that, you would not get the volume of stuff! If you consume some of it to power your systems.

The point of the game is not to be easy but hard.. Get NEI if you just want to build without mining.


+ I like micro managing stuff..

JoneK, on 24 April 2012 - 02:46 PM said:

The point of the game is not to be easy but hard.. Get NEI if you just want to build without mining.

This is a conceited statement, and I'm tired of seeing people make statements like this one. You know full well that what you're saying is not fact, it is opinion, so don't post it as though it is.

I enjoy a hard gameplay as much as the next hardcore goer, but let's be fair to those who don't. Why do you think Minecraft has difficulty options other than "Peaceful" and "Hardcore"? It's because there are a myriad of players out there with varying tastes concerning difficulty.

As for me, I like coding turtles… my current project is getting an army of turtles to mine out the continent, transporting goods to a central bus-line for shipping, and returning to the main hub when they've completed their task. While they're out adventuring, getting lost, breaking down, doing what turtles do in their time off, I enjoy building. But building gets old quickly, as with anything else for me, thus gathering resources to CONTINUE building, fighting monsters, exploring new opportunities, etc. keeps me going.

I wouldn't be against the idea for fueled turtles, personally, but I think before that Dan could focus on a turtle's ability to carry out an issued task between world loads… right now that's a huge hurdle for me to overcome with the turtle stripmining operation I have going. :)/>/>

*ahem* But to remain on topic about turtle "upgrades", I propose one of the previous ideas stated here (somewhat). How about having turtles start out… simplistic? The first turtle to be crafted only has treads to move itself around with, thus only allowing them to climb one-block-high obstacles. These turtles could then be upgraded with the ability to climb large vertical obstacles. After that, the turtle would then gain the ability to hover as they do now. I don't think it's as much of a "balancing" idea as it is an expansion idea. If upgrading a turtle to hover costs me resources, I may be more inclined to settle for a crawling turtle to mine out a tunnel, saving my precious hoverturtle for projects more suited to his ability. We wouldn't be forced to micromanage the turtles any more than we do now, but we now have options as far as what turtles we want to use. :)/>/>

~Plystire

Plystire, on 25 April 2012 - 05:03 PM said:

JoneK, on 24 April 2012 - 02:46 PM said:

The point of the game is not to be easy but hard.. Get NEI if you just want to build without mining.

This is a conceited statement, and I'm tired of seeing people make statements like this one. You know full well that what you're saying is not fact, it is opinion, so don't post it as though it is.

~Plystire

Wasn't a statement, as I previously explained my point of view on the game… As an Admin my view differs from just players who want other things from this game…

How ever.. Over Powered Or OP things in minecraft demise the game it self an in my opinion ruin the game. I was promoting this as an option to CC.. And OP is OP

Ouh and obviously i should have chosen my words more carefully for the ppl who don't read who threads… Here you go "The point of what I want to provide as a game of modded minecraft for my multi players is plaa plaa plaa don't remember the rest.."

Just going to add to the choir.

Yes, for the people who have IC/BC/RP/ETC some power consumption and charging would be nice.

Mining with turtles almost puts miners from other mods to shame.

Also…limitations are fun to solve :P/>/>

The concept of balance is ill defined.

Do you mean turtles are overpowered compared to IC2 because they don't consume fuel? If you set up a mass fabricator and some solar panels, you have the same situation: you can create matter for free, infinitely. That is even more overpowered then CC, because you don't have to rely on mining the world at all! Buildcraft seems like it eats more fuel, but you can set up automated tree farms, and, while it is complicated, it creates the same "infinite resource" problem. Other mods can create their own fuel endlessly, and thus have the exact same theoretically issues as CC.

Not only that, Computercraft is actually reliant on other mods if you want to make it able to actually even emulate a BC quarry, in that turtles cannot place anything into a chest, let alone automatically craft. They additionally cannot place pipes, so you still have to construct the same level of surrounding expensive infrastructure as you would with BC or whatever.

Your problem seems to come from the fact that "startup costs" for turtles is low. You discount coding to be startup cost, since it just involves "copy/pasting". Aside from details such as paste not working in computercraft, the theoretical "OP" programs you talk about don't actually exist in a published form. Show me a video turtles being OP, and I will believe you. Oh sure, they have the potential to be swarm robots perfectly cleaning out diamonds and self replicating and growing exponentially. But this has never been done, and will not be a problem until it has been done, which I posit will not be for quite some time. The "World Eater" videos are impressive, but what they achieve is slow AND unpublished (afaik).

How about using a bucket of lava in the crafting recipie? We can pretend that minecraft lava source blocks are able to produce infinite lava because they contain some kind of extraordinary fissionable (or whatever) material that produces unlimited intense (rock melting) energy. It would make an ideal energy source (not only infinite energy, but also infinite mass generation, as unlimited cobblestone generators can attest).

This has the effect of completely explaining how turtles have unlimited energy as well as making them a fair bit harder to construct (even the non-mining turtles), without any possibility of crippling their function.

Buckets of lava aren't really that hard to get; by the time you have iron to spare you will (probably) have already found magma lakes to get lava from. I don't really support nerfing turtles but if I wanted to make them harder to get I wouldn't require a cheap resource like lava just because it makes sense in a sort of contrived way.

As far as I've read, I really like the Iron Mining Turtle.
Have an iron pickaxe, non-stackable, for the turtles.
Degrades over the usage of a normal iron pickaxe.

Fuel idea would be inbalanced though…

quite true, cuz u can just mine and mine with the turtle and the pickaxe doesent break… But would with time run out, and if u play on a server they will be needing to re-generate it all and lose their buildings…I would think that dan should add like wave/wind-energy that powers the turtle with EL or something. Then the turtle would have a docking station or something :P/>/> Great idea

Yes! Fuel for the turtles in 1.4! :ph34r:/>/>

True. The upgrade pretty much kills this discussion. I haven't really explored enough to say whether I love it or not, but overall I like what I've seen thus far.