537 posts
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:48 AM
How come, that nowadays a program is basically not accepted if it doesn't have a GUI? There are some really good and innovative programs out there, that doesn't have a GUI, and what happens to them? They basically gets ignored, or receives a comment saying "Too hard to use".
Wasn't this the intention of CC? To make it feel like when computers started getting into families, where you only had the command-line?
8543 posts
Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:52 AM
Wasn't this the intention of CC? To make it feel like when computers started getting into families, where you only had the command-line?
No, the intention was to add computers into Minecraft.
1054 posts
Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:52 AM
Do you have some references to reactions like that? It would help to have some facts to feed the discussion.
799 posts
Location
Land of Meh
Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:55 AM
The intention of CraftOS and the shell-like feeling behind it is to give you the platform to develop great applications yourself. I believe it may have been modeled of the original command lines (or at least some of the commands would have been), but I don't think that was part of the overall intention for it to be like that…
537 posts
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:56 AM
Not really reactions, but I see alot of brilliant programs being let behind, because people are just "flooding" the programs with GUI. I don't really know if it's a bad thing, or if it has something to do with alot of non-devlopers starting using CC, who have never used the command-line, and are used to having all of the luxurious features of a high-level OS served right at their feet.
463 posts
Location
Germany
Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:56 AM
@Lyqyd: But I think a bit he wanted to add old Computers too, because its boring if you add Computers with Windows, Linux, iOS etc.^^
497 posts
Location
The Big Apple, NY
Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:06 AM
@Lyqyd: But I think a bit he wanted to add old Computers too, because its boring if you add Computers with Windows, Linux, iOS etc.^^
well that and it would be too hard have a windows emulator in minecraft….
8543 posts
Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:14 AM
Well, you can do windowing stuff, but that's a level of complexity that goes above and beyond what's needed for basic stuff in ComputerCraft like using it as a redstone controller.
537 posts
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:26 AM
Look at Redworks. It's amazing, but noone uses it, probably because it only features command-line interface, except for the login/pause screen and whatnot.
797 posts
Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:53 AM
I dont really see the point of redworks…i have never properly looked into it but from what ive tried its just a couple of basic programs that arent really useful
2217 posts
Location
3232235883
Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:16 AM
i dont see many programs that are hard to use, mostly because i actually read the documentation for it :P/>
redworks is horrible, it was pretty cool while it was still being updated, lyqyd will probably lock it if i bump it (even though its pinned xD)
and your site seems to be down 3:
537 posts
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:19 AM
I know, it was DDoS'ed yesterday …
7 posts
Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:43 AM
I'm a new guy around here, but my two cents are that ComputerCraft is just organically following reality, here:
In reality, IBM (amongst others) brought us DOS to run our PC computers; CC brought us a command-line level OS to run our CC Computers. This was the first step. (not to mention, SOMEONE needed a command-line level app to write the first GUI, anyway…)
Then (in reality) Microsoft looked at IBM DOS and said "a GUI would be easier for non-computer savvy folks to use" and windows 1.0 was born (anyone else remember that one?!?); CC Community folks began to advance CC Computers to the era of the GUI. (Though, I must admit I'm not familiar with any of them)
On the flip-side, there are awesome real-world command-line programs that are regularly overlooked, too.
Only example that jumps forward into mind is: I recall the first MP3 compressor was a command-line app (wow, just aged myself with that one…); no GUI-based app existed at the time… Soon after, "GUI Wrappers" for the command-line app popped up all over, then (finally) the compression routine made it directly into GUI'd apps. Now, try and find a good command-line MP3 encoder; there are less and less of them as "we" (the collective community of *users*) have moved on to a more "advanced" interface; the GUI.
Frustrating? Perhaps.
Inevitable? I'd say so.
There are simply more users than coders, and users prefer GUI. Period. I've *NEVER* met a non-coder who preferred ANYTHING command-line based.
1054 posts
Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:01 AM
There are simply more users than coders, and users prefer GUI. Period. I've *NEVER* met a non-coder who preferred ANYTHING command-line based.
My impression is that this doesn't hold for the CC community. I always supposed that CC is mostly used by people that are interested in learning to program. Maybe that's changing now, I guess that's inevitable as well.
I agree with everything else though.
392 posts
Location
Christchurch, New Zealand
Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:04 AM
I agree with Arcani mostly, I find it rather accurate.
But yes, as this place gets more popular, we'll start to see less intelligent people that just want to steal our code and show their friends, right after they strip our names from the header.
Sounds cynical but I don't think I've ever been in a community where it didn't eventually happen in one way or another. They don't want to code, they want big buttons they can palm at on a giant monitor with text scale 4
278 posts
Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:26 AM
How come, that nowadays a program is basically not accepted if it doesn't have a GUI? There are some really good and innovative programs out there, that doesn't have a GUI, and what happens to them? They basically gets ignored, or receives a comment saying "Too hard to use".
Wasn't this the intention of CC? To make it feel like when computers started getting into families, where you only had the command-line?
Yeah, I've had this happen to me. I actually kinda
like making my programs require documentation to use for some reason; perhaps to weed-out the illiterate. Also because I hate writing GUIs. That said, I tend to write most of my programs for my fellow developers nowadays.
7 posts
Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:49 AM
I always supposed that CC is mostly used by people that are interested in learning to program. Maybe that's changing now, I guess that's inevitable as well.
I too think this change is inevitable. As better and more powerful programs appear, more users who cannot program will become interested in "getting that piece of software" anyway and will begin to use it. Oddly enough my previous analogy continues, much like our real-world counterparts decade(s) ago… Many people who could not write software became intensely interested in getting word processors, spreadsheets, email, etc… because of their
applicability.
They don't want to code, they want big buttons they can palm at on a giant monitor with text scale 4
Of course! They're users!
How come, that nowadays a program is basically not accepted if it doesn't have a GUI? There are some really good and innovative programs out there, that doesn't have a GUI, and what happens to them? They basically gets ignored, or receives a comment saying "Too hard to use".
<trimmed>
Yeah, I've had this happen to me. I actually kinda
like making my programs require documentation to use for some reason; perhaps to weed-out the illiterate. Also because I hate writing GUIs. That said, I tend to write most of my programs for my fellow developers nowadays.
Perhaps there's an important seperation in terminology here:
- If you are writing and posting a program, aren't your intended recipient users?
- If you want to restrict usage of your coding to those who can code, why wouldn't you just implement as an API and release it as such to developers?
Regardless of how much we belly-ache back and forth on this idea, so long as we're writing
programs (and posting them in the Programs forum), we should expect that
users will be coming to see what new programs they can get, and (without trying to overemphasize); users want GUI's.
40 posts
Location
The Coffee Maker
Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:37 PM
The average person who goes off and looks for programs are not coders. They are people who are not very DOS-friendly. User Interfaces make it a lot easier for the average person to navigate your program, and they make it look more professional. More professional, good looking things (in all circumstances,) tend to get less rejection than a program that looks like it has a User Interface that would be difficult to use.
686 posts
Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:39 PM
Wasn't this the intention of CC? To make it feel like when computers started getting into families, where you only had the command-line?
No, the intention was to add computers into Minecraft.
That's why Dan and Cloudy repeatedly refuse to add features that are too modern-ish.
278 posts
Posted 26 January 2013 - 04:25 PM
<snip>
Perhaps there's an important seperation in terminology here:
- If you are writing and posting a program, aren't your intended recipient users?
- If you want to restrict usage of your coding to those who can code, why wouldn't you just implement as an API and release it as such to developers?
Regardless of how much we belly-ache back and forth on this idea, so long as we're writing
programs (and posting them in the Programs forum), we should expect that
users will be coming to see what new programs they can get, and (without trying to overemphasize); users want GUI's.
- I guess I might have been a bit vague with my terminology, but aren't developers users too?
- I'm not specifically trying to limit my programs to those who can code, it's just that the programs I make tend to have some degree of setup involved in their use, which is something I kinda like for reasons (mostly) unknown. However, it is true that I mostly write APIs nowadays.
- Isn't the broad category of "users" too, well, broad? I've been assuming that you can target specific users (much like games (video or otherwise) have "target audiences"), and as such I've been targeting my fellow developers and other such people; they may not necessarily know how to code, but at the very least they should know their way around a command line. It is true, however, that most users do want GUIs.
131 posts
Location
I am omnipresent... DUH
Posted 03 February 2013 - 02:11 PM
If you saw the episode of MineTV with Dan200 you remember that he said he wanted it to feel like the computers of the 1980's, where people learned to code, not have other people do it for them.
686 posts
Posted 03 February 2013 - 05:18 PM
Even in the 80s people still got programs from their friends who knew how to code. They passed them around on floppies.
131 posts
Location
I am omnipresent... DUH
Posted 03 February 2013 - 06:41 PM
Even in the 80s people still got programs from their friends who knew how to code. They passed them around on floppies.
But you can't rely on that, if you needed a program for something, you didn't search it up, you couldn't, you made it.
686 posts
Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:06 PM
Even in the 80s people still got programs from their friends who knew how to code. They passed them around on floppies.
But you can't rely on that, if you needed a program for something, you didn't search it up, you couldn't, you made it.
I don't see your point, other than to feel special.